Monday, September 16, 2013

The F-35, Vanity Fair, and a corrupt procurement scheme.


I've gotten many alerts about the Vanity Fair article.  Thanks to all.

But I've got to be honest.  I heard about it almost a month ago.  No details were given but I was told it was gonna be a barn burner and it would expose the program for what it was.

This article didn't disappoint.  Read the whole thing for yourself but check out these passages....

*Near the end of my interview with General Bodgan, I thanked him for his candor. His reply was a broad one, not directed at any branch of the military or any particular company. “It is unfortunate,” the general said, “that you can’t get straight answers, because we’re at a point in this program where transparency leads to trust, leads to advocacy or at least support. People have committed to this program. We’re not walking away from the program. Something catastrophic would happen to walk away from that. So just tell everybody the truth. It’s hard.”
During the 2012 campaign cycle, Lockheed—either directly or indirectly through its employees and political-action committee—doled out millions in campaign cash to virtually every member of Congress. The company’s lobbyists included seven former members of Congress and dozens of others who have served in key government positions. According to Charlie, Pentagon officials involved with the Joint Strike Fighter routinely cycle out of the military and into jobs with the program’s myriad contractors, waiting out intervening fallow periods required by ethics laws at Beltway “body shops” like Burdeshaw Associates. Until recently Burdeshaw was led by Marvin Sambur, who, as assistant secretary of the air force for acquisition, oversaw the F-35 program. (He resigned in the wake of the Boeing tanker-lease scandal, for which his subordinate Darleen Druyun went to prison.) The firm itself lists dozens of generals and admirals as “representative associates,” and on its board it boasts none other than Norman Augustine, a former chairman and C.E.O. of Lockheed Martin. When asked about the Lockheed Martin connection, Burdeshaw’s vice president, retired air-force major general Richard E. Perraut Jr., wrote in a statement to Vanity Fair, “It is our company policy to not comment on questions about clients, projects, or Associates” (emphasis in the original). For his part, Dr. Sambur wrote in a separate statement: “I never consulted for Lockheed on the F35 or F22, and while I was at Burdeshaw, we had no contract with Lockheed for any consulting with respect to these programs.”

*I asked General Bogdan about the Marines’ decision to declare their planes combat-capable without adequate time for operational testing (O.T.)—or, as the Pentagon used to call it, “field testing.” His answer was straightforward—yes, that was what the Marines are going to do, and yes, they have the power to do it. “By law,” he said, “we have to do operational testing. But by law, the service chiefs, the secretaries of the services, get to decide I.O.C. and when the airplane can go into combat. There’s nothing that says the results of the O.T. must be used, factored in, to determine what the services do. I can tell you that’s why, when you look at the real letter of the law, the U.S. Marine Corps intends on declaring I.O.C. before we start O.T.” In other words, the commandant of the Marine Corps plans to announce that his planes are ready for combat before operational testing proves they are ready for combat. (Despite repeated queries over a period of nearly a month, including requests for an interview and the submission of written questions, the office of the commandant of the Marine Corps would make no comment.)

*Take the matter of stealth technology, which helps an airplane elude detection. Charlie explained that while stealth is helpful for deep-strike bombing missions, where planes must remain unobserved while going “downtown” into enemy territory, it doesn’t serve much purpose in a Marine Corps environment. “The Joint Strike Fighter’s forte is stealth,” he said. “If it’s defending Marines in combat and loitering overhead, why do you need stealth? None of the helos have stealth. The Marines’ obligation is not to provide strategic strike. Look at Desert Storm and the invasion of Iraq. Marine aviators did close air support and some battlefield prep as Marines prepared to move in. Not deep strike. Ask the commandant to name the date and time the Marines struck Baghdad in Desert Storm. Sure as hell wasn’t the start of war. Why invest in a stealth aircraft for the Marines?”
This article should be front and center at a Congressional hearing.  Crimes have been committed.

It should be obvious to everyone.

Note:  The Aviation side of the house at Lockheed Martin is where the trash lives.  I would feel comfortable under the umbrella of a Patriot Missile battery.  Feel sorry (for a nano second) for the enemy on the receiving end of a MLRS salvo.  Would have no problem riding into bad guy land inside a Patria AMV.  So the issue is with this one project.   I highly recommend the leadership at that company and in the sectors I named to insulate themselves from the F-35.  Its the only way to keep from being tainted by the inevitable backlash that is coming.

47 comments :

  1. Crimes as in criminal? Maybe.

    Crimes as in stupidity? Very much so!

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    1. i considered the possibility of this being a case of them being so arrogant and so cocky that they were stupid.

      i don't think so.

      just look at the build scheme. building a fighter from 46 states, and 8 countries? thats hardly efficient. donating money to every Senator? that doesn't make sense and it isn't cost effective...unless you're pulling off a criminal enterprise that you need cover from congress to complete.

      this thing is just plain wrong. its criminal and we have to accept the ugliness of that.

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    2. Do you consider the F-16 a "trashy" program?

      Because Lockheed builds those too.

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    3. General Dynamics built the F-16. LM came along later as a well... "you didn't build this, we did..." attitude.

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    4. David, the F-16 was design by General Dynamics. Lockheed bought them. You know there's a difference right?

      Honestly, if this is all you can say after reading this article then it shows you know this program is not defensible you were wrong. It was built on corruption.

      Delete
  2. This can't be the first time, Sol, you've experienced the broad-spectrum application of such programs' nationwide economic impact. Actually fairly old school of doing large programs - Joint Strike Fighter is intended to be very big alright - across a good number of decades.

    What's the cause for these excitations ?

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    1. excitations? not hardly.

      i've been beating this drum but it becomes all the more important because of what i'm seeing budget wise.

      different subject.

      you should retailor your project and discard the idea of fitting into an amphibious ship. the idea should be to seek transport aboard the MLP and for it to be used to ferry equipment ashore not in the assault phase but in the assault follow on.

      i'd also recommend losing the transformer aspect of it and to concentrate on total lift.

      you're not gonna win the battle of replacing the LCAC. what you can win is the battle to make the MLP more effective. if you can claim to fill the role of the long disappeared Tank Landing Ship then you have an offering that can't be refused. mate that to the idea of the sea base (no matter what my reservations on the concept) and then you have a winner.

      Delete
    2. You'd advise the LCU-F designers to discard its fundamental purpose ?
      And that would make it a 'winner ' ?!

      What happens to your MEU's amphibious capability without the ARG carrying enough heavy-lift Connectors ?

      Once you read the article on the 21st-century LCU (pp.60-64) in the July PROCEEDINGS, you'd find, like I did, that these three authors propose a family of lighterage of 20kts 200ton LCU-F and 40kts 50-tons LCAC. They explicitly do not propose to discard any LCACs.

      With 3 16kts MLPs to be on hand, how would those assist any MEU/ARG in sudden emergencies anywhere around the globe ?

      You seem to propose that every ARG/MEU needs to wait for DDG/FFGs, then CSGs and now even the MLPs before getting going.

      You are not terribly interested in the amphibious assault role of the Marines ??

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    3. i deal in reality friend. if you want to enjoy a bit more fantasy then have at it.

      you concept won't beat or displace the LCAC. thats a fucking fact. your concept won't displace the LCU. thats a fucking fact.

      i did try and give you what i thought was a viable way to get your concept in front of people with a chance of getting them thrilled about it.

      you shot me down.

      awesome.

      fuck you, fuck your concept and when reality finally hits don't shed one tear.

      Delete
  3. Lockheed-Martin as the largest US military contractor is probably the most corruptive also, but corruption in the Pentagon is widespread when one considers sweetheart consulting contracts, Native Alaskan corporations, the revolving industry-Pentagon employment door -- the list goes on.

    The only journalist I've seen cover this corruption is Mark Thompson at TIME -- there may be more.

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    1. yeah i'm aware but this takes it to a whole new level.

      Lockheed has basically bought the entire Pentagon....the entire building. additionally they appear to have bought many Senators.

      the only people that haven't had a vote are the Marines that will be flying these planes before they're even completed testing!

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  4. I would say that Amos's post-military employment is assured.

    Lockheed, Jan 20, 2012: “We are honored by the trust and confidence Secretary Panetta showed in the F-35 STOVL variant and the entire F-35 team with today’s announcement,” said Larry Lawson, Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program executive vice president and general manager. “I want to thank General Amos and Vice Admiral Venlet for their stalwart leadership in navigating the STOVL program through the year long probation period. I’d also like to thank the thousands of men and women of the combined government and contractor team who worked tirelessly to make substantial progress in flight testing the STOVL and by solving critical engineering challenges to get us to this point today."

    Philip Ewing, January 19th, 2012:
    "The Marines’ F-35B Lightning II stood in the corner, wore the dunce cap, went to bed without dessert and now, a year later, is ready to get off “probation,” according to reports Thursday. . . .Marine Commandant Gen. Jim Amos began telling people that he’d become personally involved in running the program, that the airplane couldn’t take on an ounce of weight without him knowing it, and that all the B’s issues were fundamentally fixable. He would go into Steve Trimble levels of detail about the bulkheads that needed to be adjusted, the components that weren’t working, and ended up with an optimistic assessment.

    So the F-35B’s “probation” was a new version of the old joke about how the number of mines you need to make a minefield — none; all you have to do is put out a press release. Friday’s announcement is the equivalent of a second press release saying the minefield was painstakingly swept and the channel is once again clear.

    Lifting probation probably will buy the F-35 some goodwill inside the Beltway, but it could also remind people of DoD’s astronomical cost estimates and the fuzzy understanding about when these airplanes will actually begin flying actual missions."

    If not at Lockheed, perhaps Amos will get lucky like Peter Pace, now chairman of the board of Pelican Products. Peter "Perfect" Pace at Pelican Products -- you can't make this stuff up.

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  5. From the article: "The Joint Strike Fighter’s forte is stealth". It hasn't been determined that this is true.

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  6. "A U.S. Department of Defense budget report from last year said the unit cost for the F-35 was $153.1 million—over budget for South Korea—but added it is projected to decline to $107 million by 2017."

    http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/2013/09/17/battle-for-south-korean-jet-deal-nears-end/?mod=yahoo_hs

    If that was the real price, I think SKorea would be buying F35s now but they aren't, sounds to me like they aren't buying the LMT cool aid and that price tag....Funny how F15 isn't good enough anymore, I am not even sure they have all been delivered!, they are freaking brand new but NOW they can't fight against North Korea's antiquated SAM's and vintage MiGs???

    If I were Skorea, I would buy a top off of F15s, squeeze what I can from BA and what for after 2020 to order F35s. SKorea will know for sure what the price is, it will be real a war machine by then and all the mistakes will be gone and paid for by some one else. Let some else pay for mistakes jets and come in later...

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  7. How on earth do you cancel something is filling the pockets of everyone in congress with cash? I think the only thing that would do it would be a mass riot or all the countries that had signed onto the program to pull out. A protest by the grass roots of a certain nation involved that threatened to harm the companies involved.

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  8. The price is going up. The only way Lockheed Martin can fudge the number so that it decreases to 107mil per copy is if they freeze labor costs for the next 25 years. What are the odds the engineers and technicians at LM are going to go without a raise for 25 years? Zero.

    This is the most corrupt program out there and only shows how deeply corrupt the military-industrial-congressional complex has become. And yet, while it is corrupt and immoral, it isn't illegal.

    It is depressing.

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    1. Ok flame me for being wrong here but isn't it projected once production get off the ground the fly away cost minus the SUNK R&D costs is 65 million for the F-35?

      That's Eurofighter price, for a 5th generation plane.

      Its not gonna get much better than that unless you ship production to china if you ask me. Yes there are lifetime maintenance costs, but those exist for every plane. And extending the lifetime of some current planes would make it more expensive.

      Spending money on keeping production of new last generation fighters is still a lot of wasted money, and its money wasted to no good effect beyond maintaing the same air force we had in the 80s with more gadgets.... At least F-35 money is a clear investment in future war winning technology whether the F-35 is the vehicle for it or not. (this is the first plane that is designed as a fighter bomber and for electronic warfare at the same time, and its probably the more versatile plane ever built)

      (I really don't get why people add R&D costs, those costs are gone, the only REAL purpose it serves to complain about them is to add them to the total number to try and make it look as ugly as possible)

      I also read costs were revised lightly DOWN recently, and there could be more of this as the project develops and outdated cost factors are updated. As technology improves building and maintaing the F-35 becomes cheaper.

      We also have to remember why the F-35 is built the way it was, so we can have only one plane doing what we have almost 5 different one doing now. THe idea is this is will create lower maintenance and upkeep strain, the military has proven have more kinds of fighters makes things much more complicated and expensive. The F-35 was the futuristic effort to streamline all of that. ANd if it ever works I think we will be thanking ourselves a lot. Logistics are always the real problem for any military. The f-35 is designed with that in mind.

      People say its too big to fail, too corrupt is what others say. I say being so big just makes it seem corrupt, and honestly the whole thing seems WAY too far along to quit now. IF this project was gonna be axed it should've been 4 years ago, not now.

      The lions share of development is done, now its the bugs phase. 100 are already been(being) produced, clearly this project is already past some kind of point of no return. Just because its such an expensive project to the point its a major economic boost for those that get a piece is not corruption. This is economically as a project a much bigger deal than anything else. Complaining about it as corruption doesn't seem factual to me. If the F-35 has so much to offer in terms of jobs and economic benefit then its just not corruption. Its just one its plus sides. (we'd also be encouraging the development of the most cutting edge technology which is probably were we want to develop anyway)

      Focusing on other weapons is great, but I don't think the 40 year old planes should be kept flying for another 20 years when we have had the Su-27 purpose built to fight these things in the 80s. Much less the 5th generation planes others will field in the next 20 years.

      Airpower is by far the dominant force, strategically and tactically. You can give the marines all the landers and amphibious toys you want, but without air power you're never gonna use them against anyone with a mid level or better air force and air defense... Not with planes from the 60s and 70s... Are we just gonna pick on African nations now so the marines could use their landers? Com'on...

      Air power should have the priority.

      Also, the US should be developing weapons with its long term rivals in mind. Simply, the F-35 has value against China and RUssia, the other projects do not because of that and are in my mind secondary or third priority.

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    2. do you really believe that if the JSF program was started today that the USAF would build the same airplane?

      when the JSF was started it was expected that the Russians and Chinese were 30 to 40 years away from stealth.

      now they're building F-22 quality fighters that are designed to hunt F-35s and kill them in mass.

      our strategy across the board is trash. we lost an entire generation of work because of the Gulf wars and we're trying to hold onto that work even though the world has changed.

      the F-35 is too costly, delivers little of value to the dfferent air arms and will never be anything except an expensive waste.

      this is all about money and has nothing to do with capabilities. the sooner we acknowledge that the sooner we can start fixing things.

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    3. Why not? If the JSF is god meat to the Rus and Chinese then that goes quadruple for the F-15, F-16, F-18 and other last generation planes people are trying tp push.

      Also, the JSF isn't mean to be the air superiority equal of the F-22. So if they wanted a strike fighter still, I don't see a reaosn why they wouldn't build the JSF all over again.

      The plane is design to bomb, and hold its own long enough to get out. I think between the stealth, electronic abilities, and the fact its speed and weight is MUCH MUCH better when its at the 30% fuel mark means its everything it needs to be. (people who complain about the speed and T/We need to take a look at the weight coefficient of fuel in the F-35, its massive.

      The F-22 is supposed to do the fighting with the chinese and Rus in the Air. It always was. Now finish the F-35 project and give all that technological wizardry to the F-22. Then no american planes are gonna be shot down by anyone.

      "this is all about money and has nothing to do with capabilities. the sooner we acknowledge that the sooner we can start fixing things."

      I would repeat what i said above, without air power all the other weapons are nigh useless. There is no offensive power projection doctrine the US has without it. Its not something that can be sacrificed if you even want a viable military.

      Fact is there is just nothing else we should be spending our money on more aside from missiles and radar. Everything else either depends on air power or is obsolete to the extreme without it.

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    4. then you're an airpower zealot. we have nothing more to talk about.

      its gonna be a disaster when this uber expensive high tech air force that we're building is flying over American Soldiers and Marines that are in the process of being butchered because we put all our eggs in the airpower basket.

      its going to be a terrible thing to see but at least we'll have good video images of it courtesy of Marine F-35's flying at 15000 feet.

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    5. I probably am an guilty airpower zealot, I'll admit that. But I'm not doing it just for fun.

      I just have a hard time imaging US soldiers being butchered when they have he maximized ability to call in an Air-strike with the F-35.

      Pretty sure since the korean war those on call air strikes are what has allowed our armies to fight against organized enemies who outnumber us 10 to one. Same with Vietnam. F-35 maximizes that option.

      If i was a soldier I think I'd prefer air strikes at my beck. It's not like we don't have tanks and armored transports and ground based heavy weapons....

      I think we could use with something to improve on M113 asap too, but that will take little and a short time compared to the F-35. F-35 is the project that really needs the head start, while the APC can wait 6 years. (when we see casualties in iraq and Afghanistan I don't think its so often inadequate APCs that are the fault that you can prioritize is over larger strategic weapons concerns)

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    6. you're being simplistic. the VCJCS said that the next land war we engage in will see us face a technologically equal foe. what does that mean? that means that we will face an enemy that matches us in the quality of its airpower and will definitely outnumber us.

      i see a future battlefield where we see the air arms fighting for air superiority and allowing ground forces to handle the enemy.

      ok. i'll call artillery. but you just began the slow steady end of fast jets in the USMC. why do we need them if they're off fighting the air campaign with the USAF?

      so be it. i was never much of fan of this new breed of air wing anyway.

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    7. It just gets confusing now.

      Are we gonna be equal in the air with or without the F-35? That seems counter-inutivive, it must change something. And it must make strikes more available than whatever they would otherwise be.

      If we are fighting against an equal enemy I just don't see new landers and APC being the wining chips.

      Also, ground forces should really ONLY be operating under a secure air umbrella by any modern doctrine. If we are fighting somewhere where we don't have that we are fighting in the wrong place and need to wage the air campaign and win that BEFORE we send in anybody.

      The F-35 isn't only meant to bomb in support in troops, it can care out infrastructure bombing far in advance to weaken and degrade the enemy.

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    8. How many times have you called for CAS, or any fires? Have you done it under fire or sent up targetting packages in the 5 day advance of the ATO?

      Read about the 2006 war between israel and Hezbollah. Israel completely dominated the skies and accomplished almost nothing.

      The vaunted IDF was ground to a halt because to many members of the Israeli staff believed that with their air power they could never lose.

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    9. Then imagine what it would have been like if they didn't have the air power.... in fact during the 6 day war we saw what happened. Without air cover the IDF gets crushed by the enemies it usually whoops. Without air support the bar lev line and all the tanks and forts guarding it were butchered. Even with all that attention and focus on the ground element, and on the defensive, without the air element it was nothing, that is the reality of modern war. Especially for us western traditions where we are always outnumbered.

      Fighting against an equal enemy on the ground is just more reason to focus on air power.

      Because we are never gonna out number an enemy fighting the expedition warfare we do. Trying to fight them squarely on the ground is suicide, stupid suicide. We are not an asian land power, we are a strategic and maritime power more than anything.

      The US has never been a premier ground fighting force, it was never the equal of the USSR on the ground, it never was meant to or seriously tried. And its not gonna start with China, even worse idea seeing that they have 1.3 billion people...

      Stick with the battles we can win. Land war in asia isn't one of them,.

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    10. say what? the US has never been a premier ground force?

      now you're buying into the LeMay bs that airpower wins wars. it doesn't. the F-35 is setting us up for the worst of both worlds. first we will either have too few aircraft to cover the roles intended which means that we have disarmed...or we use the airplanes in a role in which they are substandard...which means we lose again.

      additionally you can talk about the vaunted air war but the reality is simple. we won't always have the choice of fighting wars on our terms. do you think that we'll only be deploying ground forces when we have air superiority? additionally against a potent foe, airpower isn't enough. from WW2 facing the Japanese, to the debacle in Kosovo, to the Israeli experience in several of their wars it all spells one thing.

      airpower doesn't make the other guy say no more.

      that's been the promise since the plane was first developed and it still hasn't delivered.

      if you can't at least be balanced in your view then its no longer worth the conversation. i'm a Marine Corps zealot. i believe in the ultimate combined arms fight...we're unbalancing that fight and will make our ground forces vulnerable ...to me thats unacceptable.

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  9. Patriots were less efficient than 10% during gulf war 1...

    Do you know F104 ? I was nicknamed in european country which buy it "Flying Coffin". Lm produced it and sold it without problems during years, despite aircraft problems and averated corruption in US, germany and italy.
    I think all your army will get his F35, and after that your army will pay for Upgrade and Refactoring of all previous versions builds.

    I hope i will have wrong, but it already has happen.

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    1. during the first gulf war the idea of shooting down a missile with a missile was revolutionary. now we do it for fun. you need to find a better example. additionally the F-104 which many say was a widow maker served for MAAAANY years in European air forces. it might have been too hot for inexperienced pilots but for a plane that was planned as a high speed interceptor by the end of its time it had been turned into an attacker and fighter.

      last but not least the fight continues. you can't feel the tide turning. i think we've already hit the sweet spot. no longer are we seeing fluff pieces, we're seeing real deal slam the hell outta the wildly costly F-35.

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    2. f 104 served for 11 years in real usaf, and was used many years in european country because they buy 1000 of it ! They couldn't just drop it and buy another ! Plus it would be like saying " Yeah, there corruption here, please continue to vote for us". Some senators could act like that too : politicians doesn't like to say.

      292 of the 916 F-104 which served crashed, mainly because of engine failure... USAF aborted his orders after less than 300 aircraft.

      I think, in the better case : F35 would be stopped, and quickly 3 differents programs using its ressources will show up ( IE F35 -> F36, F37,F38)

      All country with generals who want to retire in good situation has corruptions problems in his weapons programs, France Included

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    3. f-104 used the same engine as the F-4....i don't think engine problems caused those crashes.

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    4. It was about time somebody brought up F-104.
      From a fair-weather interceptor to an all-weather nuke-carrying bomber...

      A few challenges, such as the poor PR from the Starfighter-Widows Club, never mind seeing airforces self-reduce their squadron size through significant losses in peace-time.

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    5. "Patriots were less efficient than 10% during gulf war 1..."

      Yea, thank god they are now developing the MEADS replacement for the patriot.

      ]

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  10. hopefully for F4 pilots, F4 wasn't monoreactor... engine failure is one the main arguments for bireactor design...

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  11. The F-104 was sold through out and out bribery of public and procurement officials: that's all come out officially over the years.

    Ref the plane itself, different Air Forces had very different experiences. The more there was some combination of good weather, experienced pilots (and ground crews), and usage as an air superiority fighter, the better the experience was. The Luftwaffe was a perfect storm of inexperienced pilots using the F-104 as a strike fighter in comparatively bad weather but hardly the only air force to have serious issues with the plane.

    Ref the F-35, I think it is important to keep in mind that it is exactly the plane the USAF has wanted all along. LockMart is basically a co-conspirator with the USAF, not some sort of rogue defense company.

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  12. Lockheed martin is clearly a corrupt company and has a bad habit of consistently providing rubbish. The F35 is suppose to replace the F16 but the F35 is a low capacity ground bomber with a medium power radar, low manouverability and high total cost of ownership (high aquisition, running and maintenance costs). It is virtually the opposite of the F16 and now they expect it to replace every other combat plane minus the F22 (which in only replaces the ones that got cancelled for this). The plane also has serious structural problems(weight related, reduced sustained turn rates), can't cruise above mach 1, can't turn etc..etc.. Replacing the Harrier, A10, F15, F16, F18, F22, F111 with one plane makes as much sense as ford saying 'we have made a new vehicle, it is called the FORD and will replace our vans, trucks, cars, yutes, etc..etc.. we will make this vehicle and only this vehicle'.

    Its time they cancelled this overpriced piece of garbish which is sucking western defence budgets dry and countries considered a serious genuine replacement for their aging F16s (such as the grippen NG, or a new Lowcost[aquisition, maintenance, flight cost] plane, or upgrading to a more capable plane like the F15). I personally think the JAS39 GripenNG is a very serious alternative (although the cost seems quiet high). Keep in mind that the F35 was supposed to cost 40M ea full-rate-production, that is now looking like 80 after the big cut this year. The South Koreans make their production license F16s for like 30Mea, 35m was the target price of indias pakfa(large twin engine), 50M is target price of russias pakfa? When building 1000s of the F16 replacement it shouldnt cost more 40M ea.
    >http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/wp-content/DutchAirForceAssociation_Gripen_2009.pdf

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    1. hahahaha, so who told you how powerful the F-35s radar is.

      it's specs are classified.

      That Gripen NG won't fly until 2019 at the earliest, and the Swiss orders won't start until 2021. Even then, the Gripen NG will cost 65 million or so.

      The Typhoon is $100 million, and the Rafale is $80 million.

      No Euro operator is looking to "upgrade" to a jet (the F-15) that is just as old as a F-16, with different engines, and even higher repair and cost requirements.

      Hell, the French couldn't even sell their Rafale to the Swiss, whose own AF experts said it was better than the Gripen.

      that PAK-FA is a smokescreen. The Russians can't afford more than 250, and many of their normal clients are either in civil war (Syria) or can't afford the PAK-FA, or no longer buy Russian anymore.

      The PAK-FAs new engines have never flown, and sources say it's AESA radar is under-performing, even to Russian standards.

      The real issues here is that the Euros don't want to fund militaries anymore.

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    2. Pak-Fa is a much more immediate threat than the Chinese planes. (I'm still not convinced that these Chinese projects are 100% the real deal yet flying or not)

      It would be nice if it turned out to be an under performing smoke screen for us. But prudent planning dictates we should assume the opposite.

      And then the Chinese are bound to get real sooner or later. A j-31 actually looks like it could be scary one day even if its only because its the best F-22 look alike copy I've yet seen.

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    3. no. the J-31 is the best copy ever of the F-35. they just added another engine.

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    4. The F15 is a much more capable plane than the F16, the F16 was designed as a cheaper alternative to more F15s. The typhoon is actually a much larger plane than the F16 and isn't comparable in terms of price, it is also another dodgey multinational project. High rafale costs do not justify high F35 costs.

      Also the Pakfa is a very good plane, much better than the SU27s they should replace.

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  13. Nope. I'm going with Graf :

    http://whythef35.blogspot.com/2013/09/f-35-vanity-fair-trots-out-same-old.html

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    1. Let's see: "Graf" says that Libya shows the need for stealth therefor the entire Vanity Fair article is wrong . . . except that Libya didn't show that at all. The French flew not just Rafales but also Mirage 2000s over Libya in broad daylight before any US strike (cruise missile or B-2).

      -- No stealth was ever needed in Libya, all contention that it was is a LockMart / USAF myth designed to sell the F-35 and the new bomber

      -- The real lesson of the Libyan campaign was that even 4th gen jets were considered too expensive to operate for strike missions in the uncontested environment. The lesson was that the need for low mix strike planes, even low mix relative to Rafales and Typhoons, was clear.

      "Graf" is a LockMart astroturf creation, not an informed blogger.

      Delete
    2. Forget about why you need stealth in Libya.

      Why would you NOT needing stealth there be an argument against the F-35?

      Libya had 70 SA-200 missiles, and then a poor radar network. Bother were probably poorly deployed and maintained even compared to what they could be.

      Not needing stealth here is a moot point, weapons should be designed with the hard fights in mind. Not the walk in the parks we are clearly just getting so used to....

      Delete
    3. SEQUESTER!!!!!!!

      We'll see about those 2000 jets the US is suppose to buy.

      Delete
  14. this just in--
    (Reuters) - The Netherlands will purchase 37 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter planes, two sources with knowledge of the matter told Reuters on Tuesday, a decision that should end years of political wrangling over ballooning costs and delays.

    (Netherlands has already taken delivery on two -- they're in storage at Eglin.)

    That leaves Canada, Turkey, and Denmark as F-35 partners which have not ordered planes.

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    Replies
    1. The big news is that the Dutch reduced their order from a planned 85 to a measly 37.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/18/business/global/dutch-choose-f-35-fighter-jets-but-fewer-of-them.html?_r=0

      They have also had sell to their navy's new logistic support ship... Before it even leaves dry dock.

      http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/dutch-order-multi-purpose-support-ship-06113/

      I wonder if this is going to be a trend of F-35 procurement... Less jets while neutering the rest of the military force.

      Delete
    2. Who is to say they wouldn't order more jets down the road?

      It's early, the EU is in a budget crunch, and no one should be expected to order their entire share in one go. If I remember the US is planning to build its 2,000 F-35 over a period of over 12 years....

      Delete
  15. Aren't the Dutch also getting rid of their KDC-10 tankers or mothballing them? Not sure I read that somewhere....

    ReplyDelete

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